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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with Sigmund Freud scholar professor

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Todd Dufresne of Lakehead University in

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Canada what would that look like if any

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intellectual academic figure of our time

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was known to have done those things the

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problem is yeah alex is that there's

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hardly almost even any any modern

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equivalent to Freud because what Freud

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got away with for so long which is

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essentially passing off in complete

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results are fraudulent results as the

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truth but he did it all the things that

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you say he did he manufactured evidence

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and even the evidence that he had that

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he may have felt legitimately and

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honestly is so shot through

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epistemological problems because there's

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the contamination of results by the

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expectations he had on the patients this

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we know this is called suggestion right

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so we're already in Freud's life in the

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presence of a kind of cult stay with us

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm Yours Daleks a garrison on this

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episode we dive into the world of

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Sigmund Freud as you just heard this

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show along with the previous show on

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global warming our two shows that I

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think go together in some important ways

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they're both shows that I've been

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wanting to do for the longest time and

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I'm really glad that I finally gotten

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them out so if last week's show on

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global warming was really about the

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illusion of control that we create and

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that we allow science to create for us

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then this episode is about how that

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illusion of control is sometimes

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deliberately manipulated in order to

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lead us in a certain direction I think

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that's the only conclusion someone can

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come to when they look at the

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unbelievable case of the science if you

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will of Sigmund Freud and really dig

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into the true biography the true history

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of what went on how the science was

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manipulated how it continues to be

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distorted and manipulated and how this

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shadow still lingers in our

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psychological background dr. Todd

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Dufresne was a great guest I think

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you'll enjoy what he has to say and one

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other thing before I get to that

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interview I recently received an email

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from David Metcalfe who along with Craig

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Wyler has arranged a very interesting

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webinar series through the folks at

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reality sandwich that digs into sci in a

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interesting way with a lineup of some

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very impressive guests so I got David on

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the phone very briefly just to tell you

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more about this webinar in case you're

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interested here's David thanks Alex yeah

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we've got an upcoming webinar six

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sessions hosted by Craig Wyler and

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myself and Craig's one of the folks that

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was really took on Ted during the time

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that there was a controversy with Rupert

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Sheldrake in Graham Hancock speech got

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some of the leading lights of

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parapsychology coming in

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for a webinar we've got James Carpenter

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Julie by shell dan booth Cohen Chris

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Carter William Bankston and we're really

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hoping to get a good conversation

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together around the issues of

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parapsychology and anomalistic science

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and this is an opportunity for folks to

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come on and actually you know have a

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conversation with these people and

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really get in in depth with it okay so

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if you want to check that out I'll have

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a link in the show notes please do looks

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like a good series but now let's get

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back to today's interview with dr. Todd

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Dufresne on Sigmund Freud today we

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welcome dr. Todd Dufresne to skeptic Oh

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dr. Dufresne is a social and cultural

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theorist best known for his work on

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Sigmund Freud and the history of

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psychoanalysis he's a professor of

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philosophy at Lakehead University in

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Thunder Bay Ontario and the author of

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several fascinating books on this topic

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I'll give you a couple of them one is

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titled killing Freud 20th century

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culture and the death of psychoanalysis

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another that I dipped into is in

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preparing for this interview is tales

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from the Freudian crypt the death drive

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in text and context interesting twists

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in that one as well so with that welcome

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to skeptic Oh Todd thank you so much for

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joining me thanks for having me Alex you

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know where I thought we might start we

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have a lot of ground I'd like to cover

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hopefully we can do a good job of

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covering it all but can you tell us a

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little bit about your basic bio your

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background and then maybe lead into your

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interest in Freud from a research

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perspective sure happy to do that well I

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mean I I guess I kind of came to Freud

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accidentally my background is I did a BA

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in philosophy at a university called

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Western in London Ontario and at Western

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I really discovered and was interested

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in post structuralism actually so after

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my undergraduate I went off to an

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interesting program at York University

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in Toronto called social political

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thought where I did my masters and PhD

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there and while I was there in some ways

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I I went there with the intention of

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studying deconstruction which I

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you could say is a literary theory but

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for for philosophers of course it's a

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philosophical idea and Jacques Derrida

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the founder of deconstruction of course

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is a philosopher so I went there to

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study deconstruction honestly and what I

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realized pretty quickly is that if I was

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going to study deconstruction I needed

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to study not just deconstruction because

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really it's parasitical upon whatever

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it's analyzing so I needed to study

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deconstruction and something so it could

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be deconstruction play-doh

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deconstruction Russo and I stuck on

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doing deconstruction and psychoanalysis

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because so many of my colleagues at York

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in a Toronto generally were deeply

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invested in psychoanalysis which was a

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surprise to me honestly can you eject a

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couple things what why was it a surprise

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to you and maybe before that maybe back

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up and give folks Cliff Notes version of

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deconstructionism big-picture view their

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deconstruction is a theory it's part of

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it to me it's the cutting edge of what

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is called post structuralism which is

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essentially what French philosophy was

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from let's just say 1968 through to the

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80s and I did my graduate work in the

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80s which is the i guess the period of

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sometimes called of high theory which is

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to say a lot of people that work on

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French philosophy derrida and

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deconstruction what it's really about is

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critique of foundations and what is

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sometimes called a fancy way

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essentialism so theories of meaning

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which are essential 'used classic would

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be Platonism the idea of the theory

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deforms the idea that there is a

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essential notion of truth which only

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certain people have access to and what

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you have with deconstructionist is a

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kind of a deep analysis of the

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assumptions of authority and ultimately

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of power that go into these into these

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theories so the simpsons version of this

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if you will is just kind of the idea

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that everything is up for grabs in much

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more of a way than we've been led to

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believe in that we've kind of bought

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into a system of education and culture

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that has some fundamental assumptions

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that need to be challenged and

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deconstructed is that maybe Lisa would

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say or that yeah I guess that that's

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what Lisa would say is it yeah

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critiquing

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authority and power that may not be the

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very very shortest thing to say usually

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at the level of texts how how texts and

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how authors contradict themselves in

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their mace in their basic assumptions

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that would be something that

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deconstructionist do and I suppose when

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I was in my graduate school period I was

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a very much a committed

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deconstructionist what happened to me of

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course which is kind of funny is that so

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I was interested in deconstruction and

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doing work on that but because I want

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you to do a field that made sense as a

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field site a site of deconstruction a

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site for deconstruction what I had to do

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was learn something about Freudian

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psychoanalysis now I had some exposure

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to it as an undergraduate and so I

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wasn't completely cold on it but I

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didn't know a whole lot and because of

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the cultural interests in the instructor

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and psychoanalysis in Toronto it just

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made sense for me to look at it now I

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think we asked me is why was I surprised

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deconstruction or psychoanalysis was so

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popular important to my graduate school

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calling exactly right why well what if

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what's interesting in Ontario in Canada

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where I was doing my graduate work is

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that psychoanalysis was covered and

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still is covered as i understand it by

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our health care plan so many of my

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graduate school colleagues many graduate

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students in general would go into

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psychoanalysis which was free which was

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four or five days a week 50-minute hours

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and they would explore themselves right

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so it was in some sense people were

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doing it often not just because they

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were neurotic students but in that kind

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of pure sense that they wanted to

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explore themselves as artists say what

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she might say is like maybe what Woody

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Allen was trying to do with his many

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many years of psychoanalysis not only

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would you maybe have some things you

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want to explore some neurotic ticks or

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whatever but just because it may be will

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make it easier for you to think

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creatively about the world around you in

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at center etc so kind of thing in other

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words that people with access time and

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money usually do right ok sin in Toronto

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is because it there's a huge

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psychoanalytic Institute there so

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there's a lot of psychoanalysts and

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there's a huge number of students that

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are willing to take it up so many of my

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colleagues were into it and I just I

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came from a fairly traditional

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servant school Western in London where

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you know the idea that people were in

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psychoanalysis was completely foreign to

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me and before that I come from

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Northwestern Ontario where you know I'm

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sure I knew about Freud but not in any

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serious way and certainly never heard of

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anybody that actually had been in

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analysis so when I went to grad school

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of course I met many people who were an

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analysis and I just thought it was very

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surprising to me so that's what that's

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all I got into interested in fright okay

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so that's how you got interested in it

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and then once you got interested in it

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you like a lot of folks who have kind of

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a fair-minded just kind of open-ended

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research interest find a lot of history

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that hasn't been adequately I think

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explored and explained at least until

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recently can I take us through maybe at

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a high level the evolution of this Freud

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scholarship what's emerged in the last

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20 or 30 years in terms of who Freud

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really was what's the story behind these

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murmurs we hear in the background that

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maybe Freud wasn't all he was cracked up

275
00:11:14,530 --> 00:11:12,290
to be yeah that's a good question I'd

276
00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:14,540
back up just for one second say this

277
00:11:18,580 --> 00:11:16,720
first to get into that for myself

278
00:11:20,710 --> 00:11:18,590
because I was interested in

279
00:11:22,150 --> 00:11:20,720
deconstruction what happened to me is

280
00:11:23,470 --> 00:11:22,160
when I looked at Freud I realized that

281
00:11:25,060 --> 00:11:23,480
the work of deconstruction and

282
00:11:26,950 --> 00:11:25,070
psychoanalysis was not actually very

283
00:11:28,390 --> 00:11:26,960
good so ironically i ended up being

284
00:11:29,590 --> 00:11:28,400
somebody that was interested in

285
00:11:32,110 --> 00:11:29,600
deconstruction but kim became a

286
00:11:34,390 --> 00:11:32,120
specialist in freud and my first my

287
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:34,400
first cell father book the tales from

288
00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:36,530
Freud encrypt that you mentioned it ends

289
00:11:40,540 --> 00:11:38,690
essentially before I start doing my own

290
00:11:43,410 --> 00:11:40,550
thing with a critique of dere identity

291
00:11:45,130 --> 00:11:43,420
construction so what I was left with was

292
00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:45,140
realizing the limitations of

293
00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:47,510
deconstruction and stuck with an area of

294
00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:49,130
study that I in fact never had any

295
00:11:53,050 --> 00:11:50,720
intention of being a specialist which is

296
00:11:55,540 --> 00:11:53,060
for even psychoanalysis well not that is

297
00:11:57,100 --> 00:11:55,550
the true thing yeah yeah so I'm very I

298
00:11:59,020 --> 00:11:57,110
suppose unusual that i came to

299
00:12:01,360 --> 00:11:59,030
psychoanalysis not because i was in

300
00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:01,370
analysis or because i particularly liked

301
00:12:06,550 --> 00:12:03,770
it just just purely because i was

302
00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:06,560
curious about it so the to follow up on

303
00:12:09,190 --> 00:12:07,760
the rest of your question you know the

304
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:09,200
evolution of freud scholarship one of

305
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:10,850
the things that really struck me pretty

306
00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:13,730
quickly I got lucky in some ways because

307
00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:14,570
I was a

308
00:12:19,450 --> 00:12:16,850
ta for a guy named Paul Rosen who's a

309
00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:19,460
major Freud scholar and he he was

310
00:12:23,410 --> 00:12:21,710
dubbing droid scholar probably at York

311
00:12:25,390 --> 00:12:23,420
University and he's one of the main

312
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:25,400
biographers a fried in the world since

313
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:28,370
passed away and i happen to be set up

314
00:12:32,860 --> 00:12:30,050
with him to be his ta which made sense

315
00:12:35,410 --> 00:12:32,870
given my my interests and what I would

316
00:12:36,970 --> 00:12:35,420
really quickly realized is that in the

317
00:12:38,740 --> 00:12:36,980
field of psychoanalysis there are

318
00:12:42,190 --> 00:12:38,750
certain texts and certain thinkers that

319
00:12:44,050 --> 00:12:42,200
are you know verboten they're not

320
00:12:47,260 --> 00:12:44,060
allowed right and certain kind of

321
00:12:48,940 --> 00:12:47,270
thinkers that are not looked upon very

322
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:48,950
well and Rosen was one of these people

323
00:12:54,340 --> 00:12:52,490
so to migrate lock is that I worked with

324
00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:54,350
a guy that was already kind of a heretic

325
00:12:59,980 --> 00:12:57,290
and psychoanalysis so I was immediately

326
00:13:02,500 --> 00:12:59,990
struck by how politicized the field was

327
00:13:04,030 --> 00:13:02,510
and how you know if you simply red

328
00:13:05,860 --> 00:13:04,040
somebody like Rosen's work or other

329
00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:05,870
these people are many other scholars who

330
00:13:11,260 --> 00:13:09,410
have been kind of on a list of heretics

331
00:13:13,330 --> 00:13:11,270
you realize that there's lots of great

332
00:13:16,690 --> 00:13:13,340
work out there that many people simply

333
00:13:17,770 --> 00:13:16,700
won't read because it is for somehow is

334
00:13:20,290 --> 00:13:17,780
somehow us on it's on it's in

335
00:13:22,060 --> 00:13:20,300
blacklisted one way or another so what I

336
00:13:25,330 --> 00:13:22,070
had to realize is that i really had to

337
00:13:28,390 --> 00:13:25,340
find my own way and the field was really

338
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:28,400
this field of criticism in the last 30

339
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:30,170
40 years was made possible by people

340
00:13:36,910 --> 00:13:33,530
like Paul Rosen Henry Ellenberger great

341
00:13:38,980 --> 00:13:36,920
historian as well and then at the other

342
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:38,990
end of that Frank cioffi great

343
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:40,970
philosopher since passed away as well

344
00:13:45,610 --> 00:13:44,210
and then at the other end in the 90s of

345
00:13:47,350 --> 00:13:45,620
somebody like Fredrik Cruz was an

346
00:13:50,650 --> 00:13:47,360
English professor from Berkeley since

347
00:13:52,180 --> 00:13:50,660
retired these people really you know had

348
00:13:54,730 --> 00:13:52,190
to have a certain amount of courage to

349
00:13:56,710 --> 00:13:54,740
go against every day convictions about

350
00:14:00,550 --> 00:13:56,720
Freud and psychoanalysis because like I

351
00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:00,560
said certain criticisms of Freud certain

352
00:14:05,470 --> 00:14:02,510
viewpoints of Freud were just not

353
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:05,480
indulged at all so for me I didn't have

354
00:14:09,940 --> 00:14:07,850
to be brave in some ways I already had

355
00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:09,950
the field was already opened up by these

356
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:11,690
people who suffered the consequences of

357
00:14:17,740 --> 00:14:15,710
their heresy I suppose Rosen who you

358
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:17,750
know started off as a darling of the

359
00:14:22,210 --> 00:14:20,690
psychoanalytic field and became a you

360
00:14:24,970 --> 00:14:22,220
know a heretic he really suffered I

361
00:14:26,860 --> 00:14:24,980
think personally at the hands of

362
00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:26,870
institutional psychoanalysis because

363
00:14:30,610 --> 00:14:28,310
really wanted I think to be accepted in

364
00:14:33,130 --> 00:14:30,620
some ways well for me of course I had no

365
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:33,140
illusions I never cared to be accepted

366
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:35,570
by them and I also had no problem

367
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:37,690
reading works that people wouldn't read

368
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:40,850
before we talk past that too much give

369
00:14:46,090 --> 00:14:43,850
people a sense for this criticism

370
00:14:47,740 --> 00:14:46,100
because there are layers of criticism

371
00:14:48,910 --> 00:14:47,750
and the way you're saying I think people

372
00:14:50,980 --> 00:14:48,920
might get the impression that there's

373
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:50,990
kind of little tussle over how this

374
00:14:55,690 --> 00:14:52,730
should be interpreted or that should be

375
00:14:59,110 --> 00:14:55,700
interpreted when in fact the the real

376
00:15:02,740 --> 00:14:59,120
historical touch points that we have

377
00:15:04,390 --> 00:15:02,750
paint a just a horrible picture of Freud

378
00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:04,400
of someone who is really a complete

379
00:15:10,269 --> 00:15:07,760
fraud who manufactures evidenced in

380
00:15:13,540 --> 00:15:10,279
order to support his theory that copies

381
00:15:15,579 --> 00:15:13,550
without attribution other people's work

382
00:15:18,490 --> 00:15:15,589
or at least he promotes himself as kind

383
00:15:19,870 --> 00:15:18,500
of being this original great genius when

384
00:15:21,130 --> 00:15:19,880
you know he's really still in the

385
00:15:23,410 --> 00:15:21,140
shoulders of all these other people I

386
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:23,420
mean it's really that the history of it

387
00:15:28,690 --> 00:15:26,690
beyond just critiquing theory is just I

388
00:15:30,940 --> 00:15:28,700
think stunning for people who haven't

389
00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:30,950
fully uncounted it and there at the

390
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:33,110
other side of that though that I really

391
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:34,850
want you to get get into to support that

392
00:15:42,190 --> 00:15:38,690
is how we know that how this information

393
00:15:44,740 --> 00:15:42,200
was really held in in kind of lock and

394
00:15:47,050 --> 00:15:44,750
key and protected under Titus controls

395
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:47,060
for so long and then it's gradually you

396
00:15:51,970 --> 00:15:49,490
know they've pried it loose so give

397
00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:51,980
people a sense for that yeah there's so

398
00:15:58,720 --> 00:15:53,360
much to say I hardly know where to begin

399
00:16:00,370 --> 00:15:58,730
uh in some ways you know from my

400
00:16:01,810 --> 00:16:00,380
perspective what really happened was

401
00:16:04,540 --> 00:16:01,820
Ernest Jones came out with his

402
00:16:07,750 --> 00:16:04,550
three-volume biography in the 1950s 53

403
00:16:09,790 --> 00:16:07,760
55 57 then he died and basically you

404
00:16:12,310 --> 00:16:09,800
have everything after that after the

405
00:16:14,980 --> 00:16:12,320
Jones biography which is an official

406
00:16:17,140 --> 00:16:14,990
official biography psychoanalysis is

407
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:17,150
kind of a response to this official

408
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:20,450
biography and in what happens is that

409
00:16:26,530 --> 00:16:22,160
people start becoming more more critical

410
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:26,540
of psychoanalysis for me wet with with

411
00:16:32,260 --> 00:16:28,970
Rosen is one of the first figures in

412
00:16:33,370 --> 00:16:32,270
this regard and it's around 1967-68 when

413
00:16:37,210 --> 00:16:33,380
he publishes a book called brother

414
00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:37,220
animal in which he reveals that one of

415
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:38,510
Freud's early followers committed

416
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:40,370
suicide you know and Freud

417
00:16:47,790 --> 00:16:43,490
I guess the the you know the radical

418
00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:47,800
side of this is that well Freud was very

419
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:50,720
unmoved by this followers plight he was

420
00:16:54,670 --> 00:16:53,330
a you know sycophant like half the

421
00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:54,680
people surrounding Freud and he kind of

422
00:16:57,430 --> 00:16:56,240
rebuffed him in various ways in the guy

423
00:16:59,980 --> 00:16:57,440
committed suicide okay that's that's

424
00:17:01,960 --> 00:16:59,990
horrible not entirely surprised in some

425
00:17:03,610 --> 00:17:01,970
ways what is in fact deeper and more

426
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:03,620
radical than that is that Rosen exposed

427
00:17:08,620 --> 00:17:06,410
it during the 1920s Twite during two

428
00:17:10,569 --> 00:17:08,630
periods in 1920s Freud analyzed his own

429
00:17:12,910 --> 00:17:10,579
daughter Anna and that's what really got

430
00:17:15,130 --> 00:17:12,920
him into trouble and that's kind of the

431
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:15,140
beginning of this movement to reassess

432
00:17:19,360 --> 00:17:16,730
the fundamental myths of psychoanalysis

433
00:17:20,949 --> 00:17:19,370
or the shibboleths the things that we

434
00:17:23,620 --> 00:17:20,959
didn't know we're myths but certainly we

435
00:17:25,929 --> 00:17:23,630
now know are myths and I call it really

436
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:25,939
the beginning of critical Freud studies

437
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:30,650
now I take it to be this is a post Jones

438
00:17:36,730 --> 00:17:33,290
movement roughly from mid 60's through

439
00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:36,740
to the late 1990s and maybe going on

440
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:39,200
today today as well and I see it as like

441
00:17:43,330 --> 00:17:41,450
the whole purpose of scholarship and

442
00:17:46,330 --> 00:17:43,340
Freud studies is to move to critical

443
00:17:49,060 --> 00:17:46,340
Freud studies now how did it happen it's

444
00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:49,070
it's really it's really amazing one of

445
00:17:52,510 --> 00:17:50,510
the untold stories of psychoanalytic

446
00:17:54,790 --> 00:17:52,520
studies or Freud studies as it's usually

447
00:17:56,799 --> 00:17:54,800
cold is that one of the reasons there's

448
00:17:58,780 --> 00:17:56,809
so much misinformation is that the vast

449
00:18:00,850 --> 00:17:58,790
majority of books published and then

450
00:18:04,660 --> 00:18:00,860
appear under the you know library

451
00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:04,670
heading of BF 173 if 173 to 175 roughly

452
00:18:08,710 --> 00:18:06,110
and go to any library need to find all

453
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:08,720
the Freud books there this work is so

454
00:18:14,830 --> 00:18:12,290
much a shot through basically what most

455
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:14,840
of this work is vanity publishing so

456
00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:17,410
much of the field is run by

457
00:18:24,340 --> 00:18:21,110
psychoanalysts who have positions of

458
00:18:26,049 --> 00:18:24,350
authority they start their own book

459
00:18:29,970 --> 00:18:26,059
publishers they start their own journals

460
00:18:33,250 --> 00:18:29,980
and pretty soon they have a kind of

461
00:18:34,750 --> 00:18:33,260
authority in the marketplace of ideas so

462
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:34,760
that it's very very hard to actually

463
00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:37,250
find and in this and the thousands of

464
00:18:40,270 --> 00:18:38,480
books on publish on four it's hard to

465
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:40,280
find anything actually tells the truth

466
00:18:46,510 --> 00:18:43,490
so it's a very hard thing for somebody

467
00:18:47,860 --> 00:18:46,520
to free themselves from many many

468
00:18:49,860 --> 00:18:47,870
misconceptions about Freud and you

469
00:18:51,690 --> 00:18:49,870
mentioned a couple of them Freud

470
00:18:55,049 --> 00:18:51,700
manufactured evidence

471
00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:55,059
you know one of the things is this this

472
00:18:58,529 --> 00:18:57,250
very that's not well appreciate is how

473
00:19:01,080 --> 00:18:58,539
much well Frank Freud went out of his

474
00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:01,090
way to manipulate the the reception of

475
00:19:05,519 --> 00:19:02,320
his own work right he wrote his own

476
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:05,529
histories first of all he many times he

477
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:07,570
always revised his own histories and

478
00:19:10,620 --> 00:19:09,130
sometimes there's discrepancies with his

479
00:19:12,210 --> 00:19:10,630
own histories but he was always trying

480
00:19:15,539 --> 00:19:12,220
to spin his history in advance because

481
00:19:17,580 --> 00:19:15,549
Freud always uh you know always kind of

482
00:19:19,980 --> 00:19:17,590
perceived himself as a historically

483
00:19:22,139 --> 00:19:19,990
important person and so he proceeded

484
00:19:24,149 --> 00:19:22,149
accordingly so he destroyed some of his

485
00:19:25,980 --> 00:19:24,159
correspondence he would destroy his

486
00:19:27,870 --> 00:19:25,990
process notes that he used to create his

487
00:19:29,669 --> 00:19:27,880
famous case studies of which there

488
00:19:32,279 --> 00:19:29,679
really is only for that he wrote all of

489
00:19:33,779 --> 00:19:32,289
which are failures by the way and he

490
00:19:35,039 --> 00:19:33,789
destroyed the notes these were important

491
00:19:37,409 --> 00:19:35,049
cases you think you'd keep them but he

492
00:19:39,810 --> 00:19:37,419
destroyed them he tried to get the his

493
00:19:42,930 --> 00:19:39,820
famous letters with William fleece

494
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:42,940
destroyed but Murray Bonaparte preserved

495
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:46,210
them against his wishes so Freud was

496
00:19:50,129 --> 00:19:48,010
always interested in you know in

497
00:19:51,870 --> 00:19:50,139
manipulating the reception of his work

498
00:19:53,310 --> 00:19:51,880
and he was largely successful in many

499
00:19:56,250 --> 00:19:53,320
ways because people generally have

500
00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:56,260
believed what he said can we stop can we

501
00:19:58,799 --> 00:19:57,490
stop right there because one of the

502
00:20:00,389 --> 00:19:58,809
things I always like to do when I get

503
00:20:02,460 --> 00:20:00,399
into these discussions with people and I

504
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:02,470
have just kind of a very superficial

505
00:20:06,029 --> 00:20:04,450
understanding of this stuff you know you

506
00:20:08,340 --> 00:20:06,039
could get into it much greater detail

507
00:20:11,399 --> 00:20:08,350
but I always stop at this point and say

508
00:20:14,820 --> 00:20:11,409
you know what would that look like in

509
00:20:17,340 --> 00:20:14,830
modern academic standards you know just

510
00:20:20,909 --> 00:20:17,350
just what we already know there what

511
00:20:24,690 --> 00:20:20,919
would that look like if any intellectual

512
00:20:29,220 --> 00:20:24,700
academic figure of our time was known to

513
00:20:31,730 --> 00:20:29,230
have done those things I mean I can't

514
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:31,740
imagine but they would be completely

515
00:20:37,019 --> 00:20:34,690
ostracized is just kind of the beginning

516
00:20:39,570 --> 00:20:37,029
of it I mean they they be a complete

517
00:20:41,310 --> 00:20:39,580
joke the problem is yeah alex is that

518
00:20:44,190 --> 00:20:41,320
there's hardly almost even any any

519
00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:44,200
modern equivalent to Freud because what

520
00:20:50,940 --> 00:20:47,110
Freud got away with for so long which is

521
00:20:53,310 --> 00:20:50,950
essentially passing off in complete

522
00:20:55,470 --> 00:20:53,320
results are fraudulent results as the

523
00:20:56,789 --> 00:20:55,480
truth uh you know I can give you some

524
00:20:58,830 --> 00:20:56,799
examples we'll get into it maybe later

525
00:21:01,080 --> 00:20:58,840
but he did all the things that you say

526
00:21:02,460 --> 00:21:01,090
he did he manufactured evidence and even

527
00:21:05,310 --> 00:21:02,470
the evidence that he had that he may

528
00:21:07,620 --> 00:21:05,320
have felt legitimately and honestly

529
00:21:10,769 --> 00:21:07,630
is so shot through epistemological

530
00:21:12,749 --> 00:21:10,779
problems because there's there's the

531
00:21:14,220 --> 00:21:12,759
contamination of results by the

532
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:14,230
expectations he had on the patient's

533
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:16,000
this we know this is called suggestion

534
00:21:20,879 --> 00:21:19,600
right um in undue influence but you

535
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:20,889
gotta remember that this guy one of the

536
00:21:24,330 --> 00:21:21,850
things that's interesting about Freud is

537
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:24,340
he was a scientist and as a scientist he

538
00:21:28,529 --> 00:21:26,250
had followers and his followers

539
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:28,539
routinely referred to his major works

540
00:21:35,249 --> 00:21:31,360
like a interpretation of dreams as their

541
00:21:38,879 --> 00:21:35,259
Bibles so we're not we're already in

542
00:21:43,049 --> 00:21:38,889
Freud's life in the in the presence of a

543
00:21:44,460 --> 00:21:43,059
kind of cult or church or the immun is

544
00:21:47,029 --> 00:21:44,470
something does not scientific mean this

545
00:21:49,740 --> 00:21:47,039
guy was a trained neurologist right and

546
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:49,750
hibiki he asked some legitimate

547
00:21:56,310 --> 00:21:51,490
questions he explored these questions

548
00:22:00,269 --> 00:21:56,320
but at some point ambition took over and

549
00:22:02,220 --> 00:22:00,279
he and you know fudged the results in

550
00:22:04,529 --> 00:22:02,230
many ways like you're saying so what

551
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:04,539
would happen today is of course in what

552
00:22:09,090 --> 00:22:06,490
should happen with Freud is that minute

553
00:22:11,180 --> 00:22:09,100
people see that he fudged the results in

554
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:11,190
a number of ways that are absolutely

555
00:22:16,409 --> 00:22:14,710
clear there's no question well anybody

556
00:22:17,610 --> 00:22:16,419
that has any fair-mindedness would say

557
00:22:20,519 --> 00:22:17,620
that everything that follows from those

558
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:20,529
results is therefore questionable right

559
00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:22,210
but that's not what happens with Freud

560
00:22:26,340 --> 00:22:24,190
and that's because we're in the presence

561
00:22:28,289 --> 00:22:26,350
of a belief system like a religion so

562
00:22:30,629 --> 00:22:28,299
that people don't want to question it

563
00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:30,639
you know anything today it'd be like us

564
00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:32,289
people you know you lose tenure you lose

565
00:22:36,810 --> 00:22:34,240
your job you'd be fired and when this

566
00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:36,820
happens of course people fall into

567
00:22:40,919 --> 00:22:38,350
disgrace but Freud is never really

568
00:22:43,590 --> 00:22:40,929
seriously fallen into disgrace and one

569
00:22:44,639 --> 00:22:43,600
of the one of the faults of what other

570
00:22:46,619 --> 00:22:44,649
things that's happened which is amazing

571
00:22:48,210 --> 00:22:46,629
to me because I'm a somebody works in

572
00:22:50,279 --> 00:22:48,220
the humanities is that really part of

573
00:22:51,690 --> 00:22:50,289
the blame belongs to people in the

574
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:51,700
humanities and Social Sciences that

575
00:22:57,659 --> 00:22:54,490
don't really care about science or in

576
00:23:00,119 --> 00:22:57,669
some ways truth not to be too general

577
00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:00,129
general about it and they don't care

578
00:23:03,779 --> 00:23:02,110
that unity he vies the results they're

579
00:23:05,580 --> 00:23:03,789
just interested in this as a hermeneutic

580
00:23:08,340 --> 00:23:05,590
system a way of interpreting the world

581
00:23:10,889 --> 00:23:08,350
and so this is the place we get where

582
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:10,899
people are really non skeptical about

583
00:23:14,190 --> 00:23:12,730
Freud and they don't want to hear it you

584
00:23:16,019 --> 00:23:14,200
know it's like they do not want to hear

585
00:23:17,820 --> 00:23:16,029
then that's my colleagues I'm afraid

586
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:17,830
yeah that that's that's really

587
00:23:20,730 --> 00:23:19,120
interesting I think

588
00:23:23,310 --> 00:23:20,740
be very interesting to a lot of our

589
00:23:26,100 --> 00:23:23,320
listeners because I think that kind of

590
00:23:28,590 --> 00:23:26,110
theme comes up again and again on

591
00:23:31,140 --> 00:23:28,600
skeptic oh and that's that we all think

592
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:31,150
that we're driven by data and evidence

593
00:23:36,420 --> 00:23:34,690
and what we come to find out is that we

594
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:36,430
aren't so much during they didn't have

595
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:38,890
encountering by beliefs and values and

596
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:40,930
all sorts of strange ways that we

597
00:23:46,260 --> 00:23:43,210
protect ourselves so now might be a good

598
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:46,270
time to maybe give us a couple of

599
00:23:53,070 --> 00:23:50,770
examples of these obvious lapses in

600
00:23:57,450 --> 00:23:53,080
judgment yeah yeah okay give us some

601
00:23:59,720 --> 00:23:57,460
examples uh well the there well I'll

602
00:24:04,110 --> 00:23:59,730
start with we'll start at the beginning

603
00:24:06,830 --> 00:24:04,120
the case of Anna Oh was a case that

604
00:24:10,140 --> 00:24:06,840
Freud and his colleague Joseph brewer

605
00:24:12,930 --> 00:24:10,150
produced as chapter one of studies in

606
00:24:14,820 --> 00:24:12,940
hysteria and it was presented as the

607
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:14,830
first successful cure of hysteria

608
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:17,530
through talking and so she's the one

609
00:24:22,650 --> 00:24:19,510
Anna oh actually her name was Bertha

610
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:22,660
Papen I'm who coined the phrase chimney

611
00:24:26,970 --> 00:24:24,450
sweeping and the talking cure that's her

612
00:24:30,750 --> 00:24:26,980
invention which was taken up by

613
00:24:34,980 --> 00:24:30,760
psychoanalysis and it was presented as a

614
00:24:37,890 --> 00:24:34,990
cure but in fact we know conclusively

615
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:37,900
with no question and we've known it

616
00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:41,440
since 1972 that when Bertha Papen I'm

617
00:24:49,580 --> 00:24:43,840
finished with her analysis with Joseph

618
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:49,590
brewer she in fact was put into a

619
00:24:55,799 --> 00:24:53,050
sanitarium where she was diagnosed as

620
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:55,809
hysterical and not only was she hysteric

621
00:25:00,450 --> 00:24:57,970
she was also addicted to some drugs for

622
00:25:02,580 --> 00:25:00,460
a facial neuralgia which wasn't even

623
00:25:04,710 --> 00:25:02,590
mentioned in the case study the upshot

624
00:25:07,230 --> 00:25:04,720
of this is that we know that and

625
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:07,240
incidentally Bertha pap and I'm in her

626
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:10,240
later life always hated we have records

627
00:25:13,380 --> 00:25:11,770
that she hated psychoanalysis well of

628
00:25:15,660 --> 00:25:13,390
course she did because she know they

629
00:25:17,730 --> 00:25:15,670
published a case in which she was

630
00:25:19,140 --> 00:25:17,740
presented as a hysteric who was cured by

631
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:19,150
psychoanalysis when she knew perfectly

632
00:25:22,650 --> 00:25:21,130
well she wasn't but of course she

633
00:25:24,090 --> 00:25:22,660
couldn't come clean on and say by the

634
00:25:25,799 --> 00:25:24,100
way I'm the hysterically they're talking

635
00:25:27,810 --> 00:25:25,809
about that crazy person and they never

636
00:25:28,980 --> 00:25:27,820
did hear me and you know why they didn't

637
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:28,990
cuz i was still hysteric you know like

638
00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:30,610
this is not something she could say and

639
00:25:36,810 --> 00:25:32,830
Bertha pap and I'm became an

640
00:25:38,190 --> 00:25:36,820
social worker and feminist in Germany so

641
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:38,200
this was not somebody who could say

642
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:39,610
anything and I think Freud and them knew

643
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:41,679
that and Mikhail borja copson has

644
00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:42,850
written a really good book in which she

645
00:25:46,799 --> 00:25:44,470
basically says they banked on her

646
00:25:48,269 --> 00:25:46,809
silence okay there's an example where

647
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:48,279
they presented as the first cure

648
00:25:54,180 --> 00:25:51,370
somebody who literally clearly was not

649
00:25:55,649 --> 00:25:54,190
sure and really that's how everything

650
00:25:59,820 --> 00:25:55,659
goes in the history psychoanalysis they

651
00:26:01,200 --> 00:25:59,830
% stop that is completely untrue you

652
00:26:03,029 --> 00:26:01,210
know another part of this history that I

653
00:26:05,549 --> 00:26:03,039
think folks might find interesting is

654
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:05,559
later in his career can you talk a

655
00:26:12,659 --> 00:26:08,490
little bit about Freud publishing these

656
00:26:13,889 --> 00:26:12,669
psychoanalysis papers on public figures

657
00:26:16,620 --> 00:26:13,899
and celebrities that he had never even

658
00:26:18,539 --> 00:26:16,630
met I mean I just think that's

659
00:26:20,759 --> 00:26:18,549
extraordinary in our time and it's just

660
00:26:24,090 --> 00:26:20,769
laughable but he did try and pull this

661
00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:24,100
off well I mean he he did some analyses

662
00:26:28,169 --> 00:26:26,710
of Dostoevsky we never met this is this

663
00:26:29,940 --> 00:26:28,179
is more of what Freud himself would

664
00:26:31,529 --> 00:26:29,950
almost admit is kind of like a wild

665
00:26:33,810 --> 00:26:31,539
psychoanalysis but he indulged himself

666
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:33,820
because he was a cultured guy and he was

667
00:26:38,129 --> 00:26:36,250
interested in in a wide range of themes

668
00:26:39,899 --> 00:26:38,139
right keep in mind what you said before

669
00:26:42,389 --> 00:26:39,909
he's a scientist right he's not

670
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:42,399
proposing a theory and he's built this

671
00:26:47,250 --> 00:26:45,610
whole enormous edifice selva you know

672
00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:47,260
consultants that are going out and

673
00:26:50,970 --> 00:26:49,120
making all this money so yeah with that

674
00:26:53,399 --> 00:26:50,980
I mean he's what is he saying about

675
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:53,409
folks well I mean the funny thing is i

676
00:26:56,940 --> 00:26:55,360
mean yeah he was scientist just to back

677
00:26:58,860 --> 00:26:56,950
up he's a scientist but he's heavily

678
00:27:00,629 --> 00:26:58,870
influenced by literature and what he

679
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:00,639
thought he was doing in some ways was

680
00:27:05,519 --> 00:27:03,010
making scientific the insights of poets

681
00:27:07,230 --> 00:27:05,529
and philosophers befo before him so this

682
00:27:09,029 --> 00:27:07,240
is why he was so deeply interested in

683
00:27:11,940 --> 00:27:09,039
Shakespeare we couldn't believe was the

684
00:27:13,889 --> 00:27:11,950
actual author of those works or this is

685
00:27:15,149 --> 00:27:13,899
also why on the other hand he was

686
00:27:16,590 --> 00:27:15,159
interested in Nietzsche but in a

687
00:27:17,879 --> 00:27:16,600
negative way he would never site

688
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:17,889
Nietzsche and claimed that he never read

689
00:27:22,169 --> 00:27:19,690
him though we know conclusively that in

690
00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:22,179
fact he studied them in university and

691
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:23,710
studied with people that knew lots about

692
00:27:28,649 --> 00:27:27,250
Nietzsche so so Freud is a kind of a he

693
00:27:30,269 --> 00:27:28,659
was what he's trying to do do the

694
00:27:31,860 --> 00:27:30,279
science of the unconscious and the

695
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:31,870
unconscious had a history that predated

696
00:27:36,090 --> 00:27:33,490
Freud and he was going to make it

697
00:27:39,180 --> 00:27:36,100
scientific so he's dealing with with

698
00:27:42,690 --> 00:27:39,190
really the history of humanities and

699
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:42,700
Social Sciences in a way and he was you

700
00:27:46,620 --> 00:27:45,520
know a very smart guy so we had the

701
00:27:49,140 --> 00:27:46,630
diverse set of interest

702
00:27:50,940 --> 00:27:49,150
mud that much outstrip the interests of

703
00:27:52,740 --> 00:27:50,950
his followers who like you say where

704
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:52,750
clinicians trying to make money off of a

705
00:27:57,270 --> 00:27:55,210
particular therapeutic you know practice

706
00:27:59,070 --> 00:27:57,280
but Freud you know didn't just engage in

707
00:28:00,960 --> 00:27:59,080
therapy practice he engaged in this

708
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:00,970
theoretical sort of work which is where

709
00:28:04,050 --> 00:28:02,170
he gets himself into all kinds of

710
00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:04,060
trouble now why did he do that because

711
00:28:07,170 --> 00:28:05,440
in a way fried never wanted to be a

712
00:28:09,060 --> 00:28:07,180
therapist in the first place Freud want

713
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:09,070
it to be a scientist Royd wanted to be a

714
00:28:13,380 --> 00:28:10,810
research scientist in university really

715
00:28:14,970 --> 00:28:13,390
he wanted to be a professor but that

716
00:28:17,580 --> 00:28:14,980
route was denied to him because he was a

717
00:28:20,070 --> 00:28:17,590
Jew so faced with this anti-semitism

718
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:20,080
Troy started plus he got married and

719
00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:21,730
they started having kids right away

720
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:24,310
Fried started a private practice the

721
00:28:27,330 --> 00:28:25,930
necessities of a private practice are

722
00:28:30,540 --> 00:28:27,340
that you have to have patience and Freud

723
00:28:33,420 --> 00:28:30,550
created a world for himself out of

724
00:28:35,610 --> 00:28:33,430
patience I'm going to state this Freud

725
00:28:37,530 --> 00:28:35,620
had a private practice as a nerve doctor

726
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:37,540
strained as a neurologist but he studied

727
00:28:41,310 --> 00:28:38,770
in people's nerves which we know has

728
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:41,320
nothing to do with neurology and he he

729
00:28:46,740 --> 00:28:45,250
created his practice out of the detritus

730
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:46,750
of the medical system which is to say

731
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:48,610
people who suffer from hysteria and

732
00:28:52,530 --> 00:28:50,050
things like that that were being ignored

733
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:52,540
by the medical profession so the good

734
00:28:56,220 --> 00:28:54,480
thing about Freud is he took serious

735
00:28:57,540 --> 00:28:56,230
psychosomatic complaints at everybody

736
00:29:00,540 --> 00:28:57,550
ignored before they made him the first

737
00:29:01,980 --> 00:29:00,550
real psychotherapist on the bad side of

738
00:29:05,370 --> 00:29:01,990
this is he didn't really care about

739
00:29:08,460 --> 00:29:05,380
therapy he cared about science so what

740
00:29:11,220 --> 00:29:08,470
he did is he took the the analytic couch

741
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:11,230
as his laboratory so Freud was

742
00:29:14,790 --> 00:29:12,910
constantly on the look for something

743
00:29:17,220 --> 00:29:14,800
that would make him well known and

744
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:17,230
respected as a scientist and that's what

745
00:29:22,050 --> 00:29:19,770
is was dried in his findings in his

746
00:29:24,510 --> 00:29:22,060
manufacturing of findings what's driving

747
00:29:26,550 --> 00:29:24,520
his claims about cocaine earlier on in

748
00:29:28,050 --> 00:29:26,560
his career and then about childhood

749
00:29:30,030 --> 00:29:28,060
sexual abuse and then about childhood

750
00:29:33,150 --> 00:29:30,040
sexual fantasy this stuff is driven by

751
00:29:36,690 --> 00:29:33,160
his desire to be recognized which is

752
00:29:39,420 --> 00:29:36,700
completely understandable and inhuman

753
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:39,430
but that's what gets him into trouble so

754
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:41,770
your question was about to this work

755
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:43,090
where he branches off and does what I

756
00:29:48,450 --> 00:29:45,250
call kind of like a wild biographical

757
00:29:50,130 --> 00:29:48,460
studies Dostoevsky and others that the

758
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:50,140
best one of all is one that the

759
00:29:53,010 --> 00:29:51,760
psychoanalyst believe that he didn't

760
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:53,020
even write and it was only published in

761
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:56,250
the 1980s it's called Woodrow Wilson a

762
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:58,090
psychological study that he wrote with

763
00:30:01,130 --> 00:29:59,760
William Bullock yeah

764
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:01,140
that's what I've heard of right it's

765
00:30:05,870 --> 00:30:04,290
hilarious yeah as it is so awful and

766
00:30:07,970 --> 00:30:05,880
what's also great is that the

767
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:07,980
psychoanalyst claimed it there's no way

768
00:30:10,550 --> 00:30:09,330
that for I wrote that that it must have

769
00:30:12,470 --> 00:30:10,560
been by William C bull admit it was a

770
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:12,480
fraud but we know that he did write it

771
00:30:16,670 --> 00:30:14,730
so that just shows you how much they

772
00:30:18,980 --> 00:30:16,680
wanted to distance himself in the 1960s

773
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:18,990
what from what was obviously not just

774
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:21,840
wild analysis but through and

775
00:30:27,020 --> 00:30:24,450
through right Freud hated Woodrow Wilson

776
00:30:29,420 --> 00:30:27,030
he also disliked her possibly if you

777
00:30:31,130 --> 00:30:29,430
could say hated Americans but at the

778
00:30:33,890 --> 00:30:31,140
same time needed the Americans because

779
00:30:35,690 --> 00:30:33,900
they were fueling his practice after the

780
00:30:37,850 --> 00:30:35,700
fur after the First World War for sure

781
00:30:39,710 --> 00:30:37,860
and he had many many patients from

782
00:30:41,740 --> 00:30:39,720
America so he needed their money he had

783
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:41,750
been paid them in American dollars and

784
00:30:45,710 --> 00:30:43,770
but at the same time really hated

785
00:30:48,470 --> 00:30:45,720
Americans he's got some great line where

786
00:30:49,910 --> 00:30:48,480
he says the problem with one American

787
00:30:53,260 --> 00:30:49,920
patient I had is that he had no

788
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:53,270
unconscious and that's at the ultimate

789
00:30:56,660 --> 00:30:55,890
insult from Freud and that's a system I

790
00:30:59,480 --> 00:30:56,670
think about when he thinks about

791
00:31:02,060 --> 00:30:59,490
Americans in general you know cliches no

792
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:02,070
history no unconscious no depth this is

793
00:31:09,260 --> 00:31:05,810
a European matter right how does this

794
00:31:10,850 --> 00:31:09,270
idea that that get gets germinated here

795
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:10,860
in the United States as it you know

796
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:14,010
moves over of psychoanalysis and we need

797
00:31:18,770 --> 00:31:15,330
to break through these barriers and all

798
00:31:22,370 --> 00:31:18,780
that how does that work its way into and

799
00:31:24,710 --> 00:31:22,380
maybe tap into some cultural trends that

800
00:31:26,300 --> 00:31:24,720
are already in existence right because

801
00:31:28,250 --> 00:31:26,310
does have this kind of snowball effect

802
00:31:30,830 --> 00:31:28,260
that's something you've done a nice job

803
00:31:32,390 --> 00:31:30,840
of kind of pulling apart how does it hit

804
00:31:34,210 --> 00:31:32,400
those chords that we're already

805
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:34,220
believing what is it about

806
00:31:39,050 --> 00:31:36,690
psychoanalysis and about Freud's ideas

807
00:31:41,810 --> 00:31:39,060
that made us want to believe that made

808
00:31:44,030 --> 00:31:41,820
us want to jump into it like that there

809
00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:44,040
is there's quite a bit of work done in

810
00:31:47,690 --> 00:31:45,510
some ways I you know I suppose you could

811
00:31:50,330 --> 00:31:47,700
say it's a mystery how it is that you

812
00:31:54,890 --> 00:31:50,340
know this European theory about depth in

813
00:31:56,330 --> 00:31:54,900
history fits so well with American ideas

814
00:31:57,530 --> 00:31:56,340
especially when Freud thought America

815
00:31:59,000 --> 00:31:57,540
was the opposite of that it wasn't about

816
00:32:01,220 --> 00:31:59,010
the unconscious is what the conscious

817
00:32:04,610 --> 00:32:01,230
wasn't about the it'd it's about the ego

818
00:32:06,650 --> 00:32:04,620
um and and so on now you know he said

819
00:32:11,210 --> 00:32:06,660
Americans are only interested in doll

820
00:32:13,340 --> 00:32:11,220
area and he attacked them very much but

821
00:32:15,260 --> 00:32:13,350
somehow it caught caught on

822
00:32:16,730 --> 00:32:15,270
for him it was because it had to have

823
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:16,740
been misunderstood right because

824
00:32:21,710 --> 00:32:19,970
psychoanalysis is such a rebellious

825
00:32:23,270 --> 00:32:21,720
revolutionary idea that if anybody

826
00:32:25,340 --> 00:32:23,280
immediately likes it obviously they've

827
00:32:27,230 --> 00:32:25,350
misunderstood the radical important so

828
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:27,240
that's that was his view and that's why

829
00:32:32,150 --> 00:32:30,000
this is why when it was picked up in

830
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:32,160
France they took it as a point of Honor

831
00:32:37,190 --> 00:32:35,130
or pride that they resisted fry for very

832
00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:37,200
long time until really look hot in the

833
00:32:41,390 --> 00:32:40,080
1950s in the 1960s so that's because

834
00:32:43,580 --> 00:32:41,400
they took it seriously right they

835
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:43,590
resisted it and then understood it

836
00:32:48,230 --> 00:32:45,770
deeply America's took it off right away

837
00:32:50,899 --> 00:32:48,240
and I think like I said some of the

838
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:50,909
things about American individualism this

839
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:52,710
is about the psychoanalysis of one

840
00:32:56,510 --> 00:32:54,570
person not not looking at what the

841
00:32:58,870 --> 00:32:56,520
social and cultural determinants of your

842
00:33:00,890 --> 00:32:58,880
own asar but what is it about your

843
00:33:02,390 --> 00:33:00,900
psychological makeup what is it about

844
00:33:04,130 --> 00:33:02,400
your dreams what do you wear your

845
00:33:06,260 --> 00:33:04,140
freesat is it's really about the

846
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:06,270
individual so that fits with American

847
00:33:09,950 --> 00:33:08,730
sort of ideas I think you know listening

848
00:33:13,730 --> 00:33:09,960
to one of the last things you said about

849
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:13,740
politics I think this is one of the one

850
00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:15,330
of the keys to understanding why it is

851
00:33:21,919 --> 00:33:18,720
that criticism of Freud that he's like a

852
00:33:23,899 --> 00:33:21,929
Teflon you know God in the face of all

853
00:33:25,610 --> 00:33:23,909
this criticism in America in the

854
00:33:29,330 --> 00:33:25,620
english-speaking world especially in

855
00:33:32,990 --> 00:33:29,340
America Freud really was the he was the

856
00:33:35,770 --> 00:33:33,000
proponent of not free sex simply not

857
00:33:38,690 --> 00:33:35,780
just the unconscious but a kind of

858
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:38,700
liberal view of the world a more a

859
00:33:44,029 --> 00:33:41,970
greater openness right and this fit in

860
00:33:46,820 --> 00:33:44,039
not with everyone in America of course

861
00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:46,830
but with what we call nowadays the

862
00:33:51,490 --> 00:33:48,510
liberal elites living along the coast

863
00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:51,500
right so all the big cities on the coast

864
00:33:55,669 --> 00:33:54,480
plus Chicago and some other places these

865
00:33:58,159 --> 00:33:55,679
are the hotbeds of psychoanalytic

866
00:34:00,200 --> 00:33:58,169
interest why because these urbanites are

867
00:34:03,740 --> 00:34:00,210
sophisticated enough to understand that

868
00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:03,750
here finally is a philosopher / doctor

869
00:34:09,830 --> 00:34:06,960
scientists saying that it's okay to live

870
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:09,840
free or more carefree individualistic

871
00:34:14,629 --> 00:34:12,810
lifestyles so in that sense it's it's

872
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:14,639
good right Freud is on a side of the

873
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:17,040
Angels for liberals so soon as somebody

874
00:34:22,190 --> 00:34:19,649
attacks Freud like me or my colleagues

875
00:34:24,889 --> 00:34:22,200
that's why their first reaction is well

876
00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:24,899
you must be a neo-nazi conservative

877
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:26,649
right-wing crazy person

878
00:34:30,389 --> 00:34:28,240
because if you're if you're not or have

879
00:34:32,609 --> 00:34:30,399
some kind of weird religious exactly

880
00:34:34,529 --> 00:34:32,619
it's not for you know intellectual

881
00:34:36,329 --> 00:34:34,539
reasons obviously your politics have got

882
00:34:38,940 --> 00:34:36,339
to be bad if you're against for it cuz

883
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:38,950
Freud is on the side of good on the side

884
00:34:43,589 --> 00:34:41,169
of progress in progressiveness well and

885
00:34:46,019 --> 00:34:43,599
in the way in a way yes he was because

886
00:34:48,510 --> 00:34:46,029
that's how the American Left received

887
00:34:50,029 --> 00:34:48,520
him great that's why he made possible

888
00:34:53,460 --> 00:34:50,039
people like Herbert Marcuse ax and

889
00:34:55,019 --> 00:34:53,470
another crazy guy Willem right right was

890
00:34:56,609 --> 00:34:55,029
huge in the States for quite a while as

891
00:34:58,500 --> 00:34:56,619
well with his Oregon accelerators and

892
00:35:01,380 --> 00:34:58,510
all the rest of that a Freud made

893
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:01,390
possible this stuff soap Freud is on the

894
00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:03,250
side of the progressiveness to go

895
00:35:07,289 --> 00:35:04,510
against it must be mean you're a

896
00:35:08,970 --> 00:35:07,299
conservative jerk so that's the death

897
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:08,980
that's what then that's happened still

898
00:35:11,549 --> 00:35:10,210
in France as well that's it that's how

899
00:35:14,460 --> 00:35:11,559
the French have received their critics

900
00:35:15,779 --> 00:35:14,470
to you must be anti-semites you must be

901
00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:15,789
conservative how could you possibly

902
00:35:20,190 --> 00:35:17,920
criticize somebody who's on the side of

903
00:35:22,859 --> 00:35:20,200
progress in politics and at the same

904
00:35:25,349 --> 00:35:22,869
time as you point out in this book tales

905
00:35:28,220 --> 00:35:25,359
from the Freudian crypt he's playing

906
00:35:30,690 --> 00:35:28,230
some notes that resonate with our

907
00:35:33,059 --> 00:35:30,700
religious traditions or a brie attic

908
00:35:36,450 --> 00:35:33,069
traditions right of this death Drive of

909
00:35:38,220 --> 00:35:36,460
this apocalyptic kind of situation that

910
00:35:40,950 --> 00:35:38,230
we're in right I mean it's kind of a

911
00:35:43,049 --> 00:35:40,960
very grim kind of message in some way

912
00:35:45,299 --> 00:35:43,059
that he's painting it in a very in a

913
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:45,309
much more subtle kind of way yeah that's

914
00:35:48,930 --> 00:35:46,930
true it's funny you say that though

915
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:48,940
because you know the funny thing about

916
00:35:53,309 --> 00:35:50,890
Freud's views of human nature especially

917
00:35:55,260 --> 00:35:53,319
in the late work of Freud is usually

918
00:35:57,180 --> 00:35:55,270
thought to be after 19 20 though so

919
00:35:58,289 --> 00:35:57,190
that's the work made possible by beyond

920
00:35:59,609 --> 00:35:58,299
the pleasure principle which is what I

921
00:36:02,400 --> 00:35:59,619
discussed in the book that you mentioned

922
00:36:03,630 --> 00:36:02,410
and that's the work that everybody is

923
00:36:05,069 --> 00:36:03,640
actually familiar with which is the

924
00:36:06,210 --> 00:36:05,079
future of an illusion and civilization

925
00:36:08,490 --> 00:36:06,220
and its discontents that is made

926
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:08,500
possible by the late work but what's

927
00:36:11,670 --> 00:36:09,910
interesting about that work and it's

928
00:36:13,740 --> 00:36:11,680
funny that it's so popular in a way is

929
00:36:16,890 --> 00:36:13,750
that this work is for its darkest work

930
00:36:18,980 --> 00:36:16,900
his view of human nature is one as you

931
00:36:21,059 --> 00:36:18,990
say it's a grim view of human nature

932
00:36:22,940 --> 00:36:21,069
even in the future of illusion which

933
00:36:25,620 --> 00:36:22,950
seems like on the surface a

934
00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:25,630
anachronistic enlightenment attack on

935
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:28,510
religion and so it's just it's with its

936
00:36:33,710 --> 00:36:30,730
with the rationalist still has in its

937
00:36:36,329 --> 00:36:33,720
conclusion very dark views about how

938
00:36:38,789 --> 00:36:36,339
humankind can only change over the

939
00:36:39,590 --> 00:36:38,799
geological time the space of geological

940
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:39,600
diamond this

941
00:36:43,850 --> 00:36:42,330
I is does not is more typical obvious

942
00:36:46,060 --> 00:36:43,860
frightened view of the world as

943
00:36:49,190 --> 00:36:46,070
civilization is discontents we are

944
00:36:51,020 --> 00:36:49,200
discontented in civilization so yeah his

945
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:51,030
view of religion course religion is a

946
00:36:58,970 --> 00:36:55,200
infantile illusion but society itself is

947
00:37:02,240 --> 00:36:58,980
something that represses the individual

948
00:37:03,470 --> 00:37:02,250
and so the late Freud is this Freud that

949
00:37:05,660 --> 00:37:03,480
realizes that you can't escape that

950
00:37:08,570 --> 00:37:05,670
there's no escaping the illness caused

951
00:37:10,820 --> 00:37:08,580
by being a member of society there's no

952
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:10,830
escape from being in society and there's

953
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:13,410
no cure for why do you think Todd and

954
00:37:19,630 --> 00:37:16,110
you've touched on this earlier why can't

955
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:19,640
we shake free of Freud and in particular

956
00:37:25,340 --> 00:37:23,130
why do folks in the liberal arts have

957
00:37:30,170 --> 00:37:25,350
such a hard time turning their back on

958
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:30,180
Freud well you know what there's a huge

959
00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:35,370
investment in ego in time in prestige I

960
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:36,960
don't whatever word you can put into it

961
00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:39,330
then people have invested a lot some if

962
00:37:42,470 --> 00:37:41,280
some people have it you know I think I

963
00:37:44,420 --> 00:37:42,480
say this somewhere you know for some

964
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:44,430
people to have written a book or

965
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:47,010
positive book review or a positive si bo

966
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:49,110
Freud or a positive book it's hard to

967
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:51,450
back down from that or somebody who's

968
00:37:56,660 --> 00:37:54,450
been an analysis for depend take your

969
00:37:59,150 --> 00:37:56,670
pick for months or four years or 14

970
00:38:01,040 --> 00:37:59,160
years it's hard to say you know what man

971
00:38:04,790 --> 00:38:01,050
that was a waste of time how how foolish

972
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:04,800
I was people double down when it comes

973
00:38:09,890 --> 00:38:07,770
to their core beliefs and they don't

974
00:38:11,570 --> 00:38:09,900
want to say you know cheese meant was I

975
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:11,580
ever had on that was I ever a fool

976
00:38:14,150 --> 00:38:13,200
nobody wants to say it you wanna say

977
00:38:15,830 --> 00:38:14,160
well you know what there's something

978
00:38:17,810 --> 00:38:15,840
about it that's really interesting you

979
00:38:19,610 --> 00:38:17,820
know you're just you're too dogmatic and

980
00:38:21,740 --> 00:38:19,620
you're prejudiced against it I learned a

981
00:38:23,150 --> 00:38:21,750
lot about myself blah blah blah blah but

982
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:23,160
you know jeez you learn a lot from

983
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:24,930
yourself going to church on Sundays to

984
00:38:27,740 --> 00:38:25,770
that doesn't mean that it's

985
00:38:30,170 --> 00:38:27,750
scientifically correct it just means

986
00:38:31,820 --> 00:38:30,180
that it's a you know it makes you feel

987
00:38:34,220 --> 00:38:31,830
good you know that there's no argument

988
00:38:35,690 --> 00:38:34,230
to be made on the level of science why

989
00:38:37,190 --> 00:38:35,700
didn't why did my humanities call his

990
00:38:38,750 --> 00:38:37,200
colleagues and social science colleagues

991
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:38,760
hold on to it I just think that the

992
00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:40,560
investment in it is too great they don't

993
00:38:45,710 --> 00:38:42,240
know how to think with it without it in

994
00:38:48,290 --> 00:38:45,720
addition not to be as hard on them after

995
00:38:50,630 --> 00:38:48,300
Freud became dominant to North American

996
00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:50,640
culture and influencing on you know

997
00:38:55,610 --> 00:38:53,250
editors and people who make movies

998
00:38:56,870 --> 00:38:55,620
Hollywood you have movies and books that

999
00:38:59,120 --> 00:38:56,880
are written according to the code of

1000
00:39:00,680 --> 00:38:59,130
psychoanalysis if you don't understand

1001
00:39:02,420 --> 00:39:00,690
psychoanalysis you can't understand

1002
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:02,430
major works of literature in the 20th

1003
00:39:07,100 --> 00:39:04,530
century you can't even understand movies

1004
00:39:09,860 --> 00:39:07,110
you can't even understand at the very

1005
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:09,870
bottom of the pile insider jokes about

1006
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:12,570
trains traveling through mountains right

1007
00:39:15,110 --> 00:39:14,010
everybody has a little chuckle when that

1008
00:39:17,660 --> 00:39:15,120
happens mo because you know what that

1009
00:39:19,370 --> 00:39:17,670
means I'll that's a code for a sexual

1010
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:19,380
intercourse you know in order to

1011
00:39:22,460 --> 00:39:21,090
understand the world that we live in in

1012
00:39:23,990 --> 00:39:22,470
the 20th century you have to understand

1013
00:39:26,300 --> 00:39:24,000
boy because the world has adjusted

1014
00:39:29,420 --> 00:39:26,310
itself to Freudian ideas I mean at the

1015
00:39:31,820 --> 00:39:29,430
level of its of its culture so these

1016
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:31,830
people see lots of validation of Freud

1017
00:39:35,930 --> 00:39:34,290
you know all you have to do is read DM

1018
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:35,940
Thomas is the white hotel how could you

1019
00:39:38,210 --> 00:39:37,170
know that I hope you know anything about

1020
00:39:40,250 --> 00:39:38,220
that work unless you knew something

1021
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:40,260
about Freud well that's because do

1022
00:39:43,130 --> 00:39:42,090
Thomas is invested in Freud so in order

1023
00:39:44,780 --> 00:39:43,140
to understand it you got to know

1024
00:39:47,090 --> 00:39:44,790
something about Freud so it's a it's a

1025
00:39:49,370 --> 00:39:47,100
it's a circle it's a hermeneutic circle

1026
00:39:50,540 --> 00:39:49,380
and people exist within it and they can

1027
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:50,550
understand the world according to

1028
00:39:54,530 --> 00:39:52,410
psychoanalysis but that doesn't mean

1029
00:39:57,110 --> 00:39:54,540
that it corresponds to the to the world

1030
00:39:59,180 --> 00:39:57,120
in any realistic wash you want to use

1031
00:40:01,460 --> 00:39:59,190
that term great i love your line about

1032
00:40:05,060 --> 00:40:01,470
we double down on our core beliefs that

1033
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:05,070
that's a good it reminds me of what's

1034
00:40:10,010 --> 00:40:07,530
that book that singer when when prophecy

1035
00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:10,020
fails you know remember that he does

1036
00:40:16,490 --> 00:40:13,140
this analysis of all these cult groups

1037
00:40:18,590 --> 00:40:16,500
that are around this charismatic leaders

1038
00:40:20,150 --> 00:40:18,600
that have this prophecy and I think it's

1039
00:40:22,130 --> 00:40:20,160
published back in the 50s or something

1040
00:40:24,830 --> 00:40:22,140
and what you'd expect is when the

1041
00:40:28,250 --> 00:40:24,840
prophecy you know fails that they'd all

1042
00:40:30,470 --> 00:40:28,260
disband and go their separate ways and

1043
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:30,480
of course what happens is the opposite

1044
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:33,330
that just right re galvanizes them

1045
00:40:38,750 --> 00:40:35,730
towards some new prophecy or some new

1046
00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:38,760
thing in it yeah I like yours the double

1047
00:40:43,730 --> 00:40:40,710
down is double down on our core beliefs

1048
00:40:45,890 --> 00:40:43,740
so Todd awesome I really appreciate all

1049
00:40:48,230 --> 00:40:45,900
this tell folks a little bit more about

1050
00:40:50,180 --> 00:40:48,240
what you're doing in our email exchange

1051
00:40:53,180 --> 00:40:50,190
you mentioned that you know you do

1052
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:53,190
continue to teach students on this topic

1053
00:40:57,740 --> 00:40:55,650
but maybe you're some of your research

1054
00:40:59,420 --> 00:40:57,750
interests have kind of moved on past

1055
00:41:01,550 --> 00:40:59,430
Freud is that true and what are you

1056
00:41:03,650 --> 00:41:01,560
doing these days well it's true it's a

1057
00:41:04,850 --> 00:41:03,660
good question I you know I I'm like one

1058
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:04,860
of these people that invested a lot of

1059
00:41:07,470 --> 00:41:06,130
time in Freud but luckily

1060
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:07,480
it was on the critical side of things so

1061
00:41:11,099 --> 00:41:09,490
I can endlessly say things about Freud

1062
00:41:12,930 --> 00:41:11,109
but at some point it becomes pointless

1063
00:41:14,759 --> 00:41:12,940
to your ear either talking to the

1064
00:41:17,579 --> 00:41:14,769
converted people who already agree with

1065
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:17,589
you that Freud is a problematic in some

1066
00:41:20,999 --> 00:41:19,450
serious ways or you're not ever talking

1067
00:41:25,559 --> 00:41:21,009
to people that need to read your work I

1068
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:25,569
almost had my say you know and I really

1069
00:41:30,749 --> 00:41:27,130
should have already had my say but I

1070
00:41:31,890 --> 00:41:30,759
have unedited I'm editing a volume of

1071
00:41:34,410 --> 00:41:31,900
Freud civilization and its discontents

1072
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:34,420
for publisher I've done two of these

1073
00:41:36,569 --> 00:41:35,650
other ones before I didn't be on the

1074
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:36,579
pleasure principle a future of an

1075
00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:37,839
illusion so I promised them a third one

1076
00:41:42,349 --> 00:41:39,910
so I'll do that and I'll finish this

1077
00:41:44,999 --> 00:41:42,359
book i'm doing on the late Freud called

1078
00:41:46,849 --> 00:41:45,009
all the riddles of life love friendship

1079
00:41:51,539 --> 00:41:46,859
community in the late Sigmund Freud and

1080
00:41:53,579 --> 00:41:51,549
it'll be my last work on Freud since and

1081
00:41:55,019 --> 00:41:53,589
I also think you know it's it's I'd

1082
00:41:57,569 --> 00:41:55,029
someone is ironic things it'll also be

1083
00:41:59,430 --> 00:41:57,579
easily my best work it's a as well as I

1084
00:42:01,079 --> 00:41:59,440
spend this much time doing work in it I

1085
00:42:02,339 --> 00:42:01,089
know what I'm doing in it and now I have

1086
00:42:06,089 --> 00:42:02,349
nothing more to say about it but there

1087
00:42:08,370 --> 00:42:06,099
you go now I'm moving on i do work i'm

1088
00:42:10,559 --> 00:42:08,380
teaching a lot more and doing work in

1089
00:42:12,359 --> 00:42:10,569
aesthetics you know i'm a i suppose i

1090
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:12,369
want to be artists in some ways myself i

1091
00:42:16,259 --> 00:42:13,930
do photography and sculpture and various

1092
00:42:17,670 --> 00:42:16,269
things on my own so I know do more work

1093
00:42:18,900 --> 00:42:17,680
and aesthetics I'm interested in film

1094
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:18,910
and philosophy because i think it as a

1095
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:21,250
field it is absolutely awful so i have

1096
00:42:25,410 --> 00:42:23,170
something to say there and i'm doing

1097
00:42:27,539 --> 00:42:25,420
work on capitalism and globalization

1098
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:27,549
these days so i figure within the next

1099
00:42:31,740 --> 00:42:29,650
10 years i will have absolutely moved

1100
00:42:32,999 --> 00:42:31,750
beyond Freudian and this interview I

1101
00:42:35,519 --> 00:42:33,009
supposedly one of the last times I ever

1102
00:42:37,559 --> 00:42:35,529
talk about it as well oh hey that's

1103
00:42:40,170 --> 00:42:37,569
great we got the light your last word

1104
00:42:41,759 --> 00:42:40,180
I'm front of effort ok well there it's

1105
00:42:45,299 --> 00:42:41,769
been great having you on again our guest

1106
00:42:47,430 --> 00:42:45,309
is dr. Todd Dufresne many books on Freud

1107
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:47,440
just go to amazon and look for his name

1108
00:42:51,329 --> 00:42:49,930
and you'll find all that stuff including

1109
00:42:53,130 --> 00:42:51,339
this new one that he was just telling us

1110
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:53,140
about Todd thanks again so much for

1111
00:43:02,130 --> 00:42:55,450
joining us today thanks Alice appear as

1112
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:02,140
a player oh ok all that good then yeah

1113
00:43:08,609 --> 00:43:06,000
we're done excellent ok yeah yeah I

1114
00:43:10,140 --> 00:43:08,619
appreciate that was good touching a lot

1115
00:43:11,849 --> 00:43:10,150
of stuff we like to talk about here so

1116
00:43:14,370 --> 00:43:11,859
is that what you is that what you're

1117
00:43:16,740 --> 00:43:14,380
expecting yeah yeah yeah this really

1118
00:43:18,900 --> 00:43:16,750
good so what I'll do is win it when it

1119
00:43:19,950 --> 00:43:18,910
does come out and I don't know it might

1120
00:43:22,109 --> 00:43:19,960
be a few weeks

1121
00:43:23,579 --> 00:43:22,119
I got some scheduling things God I'll

1122
00:43:26,940 --> 00:43:23,589
definitely just send you the link send

1123
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:26,950
you the transcript and we'll be done so

1124
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:29,050
you I assume you put it out there as an

1125
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:31,570
audio file right yeah so it's an audio

1126
00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:33,970
files published on iTunes you know we

1127
00:43:38,940 --> 00:43:36,310
have several thousand subscribers on

1128
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:38,950
itunes and many thousands more that come

1129
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:41,170
to the website and get it so well I

1130
00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:42,970
noticed that you have a good roster of

1131
00:43:45,930 --> 00:43:44,800
people you know I had no problem today

1132
00:43:47,310 --> 00:43:45,940
when I looked at the people you've

1133
00:43:49,410 --> 00:43:47,320
interviewed you have some some good

1134
00:43:52,140 --> 00:43:49,420
people there so anyway good job good

1135
00:43:53,609 --> 00:43:52,150
good well I hope it uh I hope people

1136
00:43:54,990 --> 00:43:53,619
find it interesting and I hope it works

1137
00:43:57,329 --> 00:43:55,000
for you to maybe some of your students

1138
00:43:59,700 --> 00:43:57,339
love a chance to see a deep outside of

1139
00:44:01,890 --> 00:43:59,710
you well I'm like I sound teaching a

1140
00:44:02,970 --> 00:44:01,900
Freud course next term and yeah if you

1141
00:44:04,170 --> 00:44:02,980
give me the lake i'll send it to the

1142
00:44:06,690 --> 00:44:04,180
students and i'll definitely get it

1143
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:06,700
posted on my my homepage and stuff like

1144
00:44:10,079 --> 00:44:08,290
that maybe some people will click in

1145
00:44:12,589 --> 00:44:10,089
there and check it out alright thanks

1146
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:12,599
again thanks Alice appreciate it thanks

1147
00:44:17,910 --> 00:44:15,310
again to dr. Todd Dufresne for joining

1148
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:17,920
me today on skeptic oh I don't really

1149
00:44:23,220 --> 00:44:20,530
have a question per se to tee up from

1150
00:44:25,950 --> 00:44:23,230
this interview but I do look forward to

1151
00:44:28,109 --> 00:44:25,960
the dialogue it might create over the

1152
00:44:30,930 --> 00:44:28,119
years I've kind of banged on the Freud

1153
00:44:33,180 --> 00:44:30,940
drum a couple of times and I've gotten

1154
00:44:35,550 --> 00:44:33,190
an interesting reaction most people are

1155
00:44:37,349 --> 00:44:35,560
unaware of this which is certainly not

1156
00:44:39,780 --> 00:44:37,359
surprising I think there's been a real

1157
00:44:42,390 --> 00:44:39,790
effort to downplay or completely ignore

1158
00:44:44,339 --> 00:44:42,400
this part of what is now well

1159
00:44:45,839 --> 00:44:44,349
established history but I think it's

1160
00:44:49,950 --> 00:44:45,849
also one of those issues that really

1161
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:49,960
leaves people scrambling in terms of

1162
00:44:55,380 --> 00:44:52,930
their core beliefs about who they are

1163
00:44:57,450 --> 00:44:55,390
about how the world works about how that

1164
00:45:00,030 --> 00:44:57,460
little voice inside their head really

1165
00:45:02,250 --> 00:45:00,040
works and what it's all about so I'm

1166
00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:02,260
hoping we can generate a good dialogue

1167
00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:04,510
on this show because I am interested in

1168
00:45:08,940 --> 00:45:07,089
hearing what you have to say of course

1169
00:45:11,339 --> 00:45:08,950
the place to connect with me is through

1170
00:45:13,230 --> 00:45:11,349
the skeptical forum or through the

1171
00:45:17,370 --> 00:45:13,240
comment section the website the website

1172
00:45:20,099 --> 00:45:17,380
address again is skeptic Oh sk-ii pti k

1173
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:20,109
Oh calm while you're there you can also

1174
00:45:24,630 --> 00:45:22,450
connect with me through Facebook or by

1175
00:45:26,370 --> 00:45:24,640
the old-fashioned email where you can

1176
00:45:27,990 --> 00:45:26,380
click and send me an email and I and I

1177
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:28,000
try and respond to as many of those as I

1178
00:45:32,070 --> 00:45:29,770
can while you're at the website be sure

1179
00:45:33,819 --> 00:45:32,080
to check out all our previous shows are

1180
00:45:35,799 --> 00:45:33,829
all they're available for free

1181
00:45:37,870 --> 00:45:35,809
download even have a new section the

1182
00:45:40,779 --> 00:45:37,880
website that makes it easy to just grab

1183
00:45:43,569 --> 00:45:40,789
all the mp3 files and download as many

1184
00:45:45,849 --> 00:45:43,579
as you'd care to listen to so check that

1185
00:45:46,930 --> 00:45:45,859
out if you haven't already seen it so

1186
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:46,940
have a number of interesting shows

1187
00:45:51,009 --> 00:45:48,650
coming up some of them kind of stacked

1188
00:45:52,630 --> 00:45:51,019
up a little bit I apologize to my guests

1189
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:52,640
for not getting them out sooner but

1190
00:45:58,299 --> 00:45:55,729
holidays and family and all that stuff

1191
00:46:00,130 --> 00:45:58,309
makes it hard on a podcaster but we'll

1192
00:46:03,309 --> 00:46:00,140
get caught up just as soon as we can

1193
00:46:04,650 --> 00:46:03,319
until next time take care and bye for